#41 - Pernille Brostrup, CEO Mabel

00:00:22:

00:00:22: Hello, Panilla.

00:00:23: I'm very happy that you are with me.

00:00:27: You're the founder of Mabel and this is a very interesting company to say.

00:00:33: we founded Mabel years ago probably one your most loyal clients?

00:00:41: Just in a nutshell it's about micro-dosing but Mabel also very much about female topics.

00:00:50: And yeah, maybe you just want to give it in your own words.

00:00:55: What exactly you found and what actually is your mission?

00:01:01: Thank you Vera for first of all having found us being a client liking it inviting me here today.

00:01:09: I'm very excited.

00:01:10: this is i think one of the interventions I've done I am most excited about also turned your entire code opportunity to speak with other women, especially about business and power.

00:01:21: That is very exciting.

00:01:22: so thank you.

00:01:23: first and foremost I correctly started Mabel in two thousand twenty four.

00:01:31: The core products.

00:01:33: obviously it's micro dosing So that as a psychedelic compound We use there are also functional mushrooms mushrooms around that too supported.

00:01:43: we tend to neglect the power of functional mushrooms but if the product is correctly made, they can be quite powerful.

00:01:50: People who are not either ready to do psychedelics or wants you use them as a stack on?

00:01:55: So obviously mental health and mental well-being but also growth going beyond what we set as limits for ourselves was one of the founding pillars in my own experience ,my journey through that And I should say I came to realize at a later point in my life how much women have been neglected, not part of the conversation especially when it comes to our health, hormonal health and mental health.

00:02:26: Obviously we are talking about power or leadership today but that was why i got into this first place because there is small component of quiet rebellion.

00:02:42: I've always been a rebellious person, not fond of rules in general at least without questioning them and this seemed very aligned with what we're doing today.

00:02:55: And also call to women and men but take some power that they have given away our mental health and our well-being, but also about again our capacities that we've been taught to fit into certain boxes in play by certain rules.

00:03:19: So maybe it's very much about pushing those boundaries.

00:03:25: Very, very interesting.

00:03:27: And Penila you just said so.

00:03:30: in between your own journey I would be very much interested.

00:03:33: how was your journey to this topic?

00:03:36: and actually when did it also turn into one of the professions?

00:03:42: How is that

00:03:44: painful?

00:03:45: Okay!

00:03:48: I struggled for majority my adult life with a lot anxiety.

00:03:55: We thought it was depression, what I will come to later is that we... It's learned powerlessness basically.

00:04:02: So when you have been rubbed of inner-power for too long That accumulates and led a very depressive feeling but just felt powerless And everything you can imagine.

00:04:17: so standard therapy, psychologists, psychiatrists.

00:04:23: I was even on antidepressants for several stints.

00:04:27: that were quite awful as an experience and i did the work!

00:04:31: I did the self-help books...I did the meditation exercises, the sport..i ate well , i slept but nothing never really moved a needle.

00:04:41: and approaching my late thirties i was like this is going to be the rest of my life.

00:04:46: so it.

00:04:48: And then as a last, I would say Hill Mary.

00:04:51: I decided to go back to my earlier passion which was plant medicine and very quickly into that curriculum.

00:04:59: there were something about mushrooms and that was complete rabbit hole.

00:05:03: i went down for around eighteen months and just studied fungi made the first MVP so minimal viable products on that with the finished biotech and then slowly beginning to microdose.

00:05:18: And that was from the moment I started microdosing, too...I would say a radical new panilla.

00:05:27: there were three months.

00:05:29: Three months?

00:05:29: Okay!

00:05:30: Actually compared for the rest of the journey not really very long

00:05:34: it was like this human existence in the planetary solar system at times but so fast.

00:05:41: it was a new world, there's before and after very clearly defined.

00:05:48: And having come from so much struggle to that then looking around through all of these brilliant women I had around me taking the temperature bit round them seeing they often have the same struggles but you know we're coping or getting by.

00:06:09: this is...I want share my journey because if it could help me for so many years with something so humble as a little truffle, wow.

00:06:22: And that was the start of my journey towards me?

00:06:24: That's right!

00:06:26: When you

00:06:26: say you studied fungi for eighteen months how can I get bigger picture or better picture?

00:06:35: because there is no university where we couldn't study that... So what happened

00:06:39: then?

00:06:40: So there are actually more and more, so obviously they're mycology.

00:06:44: You can study Mycology but that would be another thing if... And you have psychedelic courses now.

00:06:52: in a lot of Ivy League universities around the world it has these courses But primarily about psychedelics.

00:06:58: I just go to my office every day.

00:07:01: i had faced out with earlier company Then simply self-study Any expert I can think about in the world until they agree to talk with me on the phone.

00:07:16: Okay,

00:07:18: being polite of course but really been here to listen just absorbing and challenging and questioning.

00:07:25: And so it was everything about biology our biology The ecosystem a fungi.

00:07:32: How do we best assimilate supplements into our bloodstream?

00:07:36: What is wrong?

00:07:37: that if anywhere...I was everywhere.

00:07:39: So I guess it was a whole new universe for you, but or...I don't know what was your actually company before.

00:07:46: Was something similar?

00:07:47: Or is there anything completely different?

00:07:51: A bit similar and very different too It was sensory stimulating baby accessories For pre-turn infants in incubators.

00:07:59: Yeah,

00:08:01: okay.

00:08:01: Wow!

00:08:02: Okay very specific I see there is some similarities but still another universe yeah?

00:08:08: Absolutely absolutely so.

00:08:10: But always very fascinated with how our brains work.

00:08:14: and we are you know We're center beings And we have neglected So many parts of other senses in the inner world.

00:08:23: They kind of overlap my interest.

00:08:27: I deployed that curiosity in a way, for the benefit of me this time.

00:08:33: What I wanted to solve from myself and then do believe if we want something business right?

00:08:39: This is only my belief here.

00:08:41: not everyone has to share it but i think that good company successful company For Me Is Something That You Truly Want To Solve For Yourself First or Someone That Matters Because The Road and the challenges in entrepreneurship are so brutal sometimes.

00:09:02: And so taxing that if you don't do it from a place of true conviction, also fun and desire.

00:09:10: I think i would have stopped Many times.

00:09:16: Yeah, I totally agree with this one.

00:09:19: Panilla when we talk about power because of course We are also here

00:09:24: in the

00:09:24: Die Machtzentrale The Power Central.

00:09:26: that's the name Of the podcast.

00:09:28: so of course we have to Talk About Power.

00:09:30: but With you it is not So hard To talk About Power Because You Talk About Female Power Anyhow

00:09:36: In

00:09:36: Your Stage Talks In Your Inspirational Talks.

00:09:41: So what is your personal interpretation of power and What does it have to do maybe with micro dosing?

00:09:47: Um,

00:09:49: so I think that.

00:09:53: First of all we have just bitpower in two categories.

00:09:56: We have external power then the inner power And those things often get very mixed up When you talk about women.

00:10:07: It's a very timely topic.

00:10:12: really want to congratulate you on that because it's something we're all aware of, paradox women and power in leadership.

00:10:22: And yet It is very rare that we go down deep.

00:10:27: so obviously compared to fifty years ago Women have come an extraordinary way.

00:10:36: economically professionally politically We vote control our money own businesses.

00:10:42: women take the majority of universities degrees today.

00:10:46: We've got companies, governments and investment funds and so on.

00:10:50: So we're in a room.

00:10:52: but being into them doesn't mean that we pay by itself.

00:10:55: rules as the men.

00:10:57: I been called intense aggressive demanding too sensitive to emotionally

00:11:04: etc.,

00:11:05: And i have watched men behave way more than me and they are being called ambitious, assertive confident charismatic.

00:11:15: And so you see this kind of dog whistling a little bit.

00:11:22: and the old script we had was that we can't be part of this.

00:11:25: now We have proved wrong!

00:11:32: The new parameters is that you can, but you cannot be too much when you do it.

00:11:36: So we can lead, but we cannot be to aggressive.

00:11:38: We could be ambitious But we have to remain likeable.

00:11:41: We have to be authoritative and don't intimidate anyone.

00:11:45: And there's another huge blind spot That I think we don't address enough.

00:11:51: women have become equal participants in the workplace.

00:11:56: Unpaid domestic labor has not subsequently became equal.

00:12:02: Across OECD countries, women still do roughly twice as much unpaid laborers men.

00:12:08: That's just what is visible.

00:12:09: then you have everything that it's invisible.

00:12:11: so remembering appointments schools new shoes who was running which Aaron needs to organize there are still the woman.

00:12:21: and I actually really researched that if the difference is roughly two hours per day In favor of the women or in favor of demand that's around fourteen hours a week.

00:12:33: That's more than seven hundred dollars a year, that's eighteen additional forty hour workweek data.

00:12:39: woman do at home unpaid labor taking away your mental capacity and bandwidth to perform on their job.

00:12:46: I think thats worth just for us.

00:12:49: remember when we criticize our

00:12:51: numbers are quite clear.

00:12:53: the number is i'm very clear built and I have never seen a serious growth company whose demands stop at school pick up hours.

00:13:04: So if you want to build the serious company, and raise your family that laborer has to go somewhere.

00:13:09: someone else has to carry a meaningful part of it.

00:13:12: um And i think sometimes we take in impossible aromatics and We call it female empowerment but its kind of catch-twenty two.

00:13:22: It's very difficult do so.

00:13:25: To your question, obviously microdosing in itself is not going to solve those two unequal things from men and women.

00:13:34: But what micro-dosing has changed me?

00:13:38: it has given me better tools to navigate those realities to challenge them and make some different choice within them because power isn't only the position that we reach It's also What were able do once?

00:13:52: We are at that position.

00:13:55: How clearly can you think, how we response under pressure?

00:13:57: whether you trust your own judgment?

00:13:59: Whether your ego helps or it costs to.

00:14:02: Whether you can see these abilities other people cannot see yet.

00:14:08: and so when I prepared for this session a lot then i managed find five things where micro dosing has really changed my perspective on how I navigate power.

00:14:19: So I call this the Micro Dosing Power List And I will also send it to you after in a paper form so everyone can download

00:14:28: and share that.

00:14:30: But just before, obviously i cannot see all of you guys... You are muted but I want to touch briefly on the science because we need to be aware what we're speaking about when talking about microdosing.

00:14:43: Microdosing is practice taking very small amount of classical psychedelic.

00:14:48: In our case, it's psilocybin which we find in magic mushrooms and truffles.

00:14:53: And the result is not a feeling of being high but rather soft and gentle hum in the background.

00:14:59: Psilocybin becomes silicent when we digested its being dysphosphorized into guts.

00:15:05: It acts primarily on the five HT-IIA receptors.

00:15:10: those are serotonin receptors and changes how established brain networks communicates.

00:15:16: So we can think of the brain as a road system, our repeated patterns feelings emotions reaction etc.

00:15:23: become highways because they are familiar and efficient.

00:15:28: And so under psilocybin those usual routes becomes less dominant and communication across different network increases.

00:15:36: So suddenly there more roads available to your brain.

00:15:39: that is what we call neuroplasticity.

00:15:41: it's all brains capacity to change and remodels its connections And psychedelic research has shown effects on dendritic growth, spines and synaptic connections in preclinical research.

00:15:53: It's very exciting!

00:15:54: Of course my dozing works at a different intensity from a big-dose psychedelic but this gives us really fascinating framework for what comes next.

00:16:04: so my big five.

00:16:06: the first one is migraine.

00:16:08: as I said before i started I struggled terribly with concentration memory overview which led me to procrastinate a lot and what continues to amaze is how much more my mind seems to be capable of absorbing.

00:16:26: Retaining, connecting and processing at the same time.

00:16:30: I learn faster i connect information faster ,I can hold very large number moving pieces in head especially if you are founder of smaller structure don't have the funds yet ten specialists, you need to be able to do that Swiss knife in the beginning.

00:16:48: And that can be very overwhelming because you have forty seven tabs open one on finance and marketing One on production I don't know what.

00:16:56: so That has been a real flex.

00:17:01: That's power.

00:17:03: Number two is my reactions.

00:17:05: One of the biggest changes has been The space between something happening.

00:17:11: So of course I can still get angry and triggered an emotional, but i'm much better at seeing the reaction before acting on it.

00:17:20: And that tiny space is a very powerful space in leadership because the first reaction isn't necessarily the smart one.

00:17:29: so I say micro dosing basically allows me to sense trigger notice choose and then act.

00:17:38: nice

00:17:39: Yeah,

00:17:41: we can't control what is happening very often but we can control.

00:17:45: What do you about it?

00:17:46: The third one is my internal voice.

00:17:49: so I need an inner critic.

00:17:52: i think every founder needs and in a critic uh...I needed boys that ask could I be wrong?

00:17:57: have I missed something?

00:18:00: But there's the big difference between questioning an idea you'll have And constantly question yourself Like, I don't have the capacity.

00:18:09: Everyone else is ahead of me until

00:18:11: late.".

00:18:12: The idea has been taken and or I'm going to fail.

00:18:20: both maybe?

00:18:22: Both may be!

00:18:23: And self-doubt doesn't just make you feel bad it creates a hesitation in you.

00:18:29: when we second guess decisions and revisit them Or wait for certainty We actually stop ourselves from moving forward.

00:18:39: In business, we rarely have all the information in the beginning.

00:18:43: sometimes you need to analyze and sometimes she needs to take a leap of faith.

00:18:48: So micro dosing helped me reorganize self-doubt when it appears rather than automatically disbelieving him.

00:18:55: so that process here has become thought notice question choose number four my ego.

00:19:05: This one is really important, so I have a strong sense of justice.

00:19:11: I hate injustice in any form and was expelled from two schools.

00:19:18: So this isn't exactly new personality development that has always been there.

00:19:24: But my instinct to fight when something feels wrong can sometimes make being right feel more important than actually winning.

00:19:35: very close friend and one of my first advisor.

00:19:39: No, sorry.

00:19:40: Sorry.

00:19:43: Sorry.

00:19:44: when I was very close friends in business vices used to ask me this do you want to win or Do You Want To Be Right?

00:19:51: That's

00:19:53: a good question!

00:19:54: It

00:19:54: is such A Good Question And i use it every day now because they are not always the same thing.

00:20:01: sometimes smartest decision means that in Go Of Being Right even if you know that you are right or feel the innocence of that is unjust, they have to recognize it.

00:20:13: I have to nail this point home and that's where ego comes in our way.

00:20:21: So this also would say a matter for letting go?

00:20:25: You really need to let go part your ego.

00:20:31: not always easy, especially if you come from that feeling sometimes of righteousness.

00:20:38: So my good thing has helped me see the distinction much more clear when it is defined worth having and when do I need to put my ego aside?

00:20:46: And focus on where i actually want to go focused on in a bigger picture.

00:20:51: The last possibility... I think microdosing is an incredible tool for manifestation although not in the magical thinking sense.

00:21:04: I do believe very much in manifestation, but to build a company we have been able to imagine something that does not yet exist and you have to be able to believe it long enough for other people too.

00:21:20: At one point the idea will only exist on your head.

00:21:24: you have to see it before any team seats, before the investor seats.

00:21:27: Any scientist manufacturers or customer can seat and believe in for a fairly long amount of time before that can

00:21:37: manifest.".

00:21:39: Again I call it manifestation.

00:21:41: other entrepreneurs would call it vision but psilocybin is so.

00:21:45: psilocybin the psychoactive compound magic mushroom associated with psychological flexibility.

00:21:51: So the ability to loosen rigid thinking and shift perspective, consider possibilities that you might otherwise dismiss.

00:22:00: That's where I see a connection with manifestation.

00:22:03: before we can create something different... You have to be able imagine it is possible then act on them of course.

00:22:12: so possibility-belief action.

00:22:16: again.

00:22:16: micro dosing doesn't create outcome but expand field of what you believe is possible, but then you have to go and build it.

00:22:25: So... Sure!

00:22:26: It's five days.

00:22:27: You're gonna

00:22:28: do the work yourself?

00:22:29: Yeah

00:22:29: exactly yeah.

00:22:33: so

00:22:33: very interesting.

00:22:35: sorry no that was at those who are my five ...and I speak really fast.

00:22:40: i'm so sorry about.

00:22:43: That's totally fine.

00:22:44: I can listen to you very fast so this is perfect for me, i hope everyone else feels the same and every one who is listening to the podcast there's a chance to slow

00:22:54: it down please You can slow me down.

00:22:58: No just kidding.

00:22:59: no um... I'm very much interested Penilla because uhmm.. It's so interesting listening to your because i have very similar experience.

00:23:09: I started microlozing with your product more than one and a half years ago, so i'm constantly

00:23:16: on

00:23:17: mushrooms or new mushrooms in your travels And many of those experiences you just shared with us are actually Very similar to mine.

00:23:27: but One thing I want to take it maybe on the broader approach now because Actually those five points on your list

00:23:37: They are

00:23:38: perfectly fine for everyone.

00:23:40: Also, like for example, for male founders or male entrepreneurs?

00:23:44: For male CEOs actually men who also ambitious and want to have a nice career whatever yeah or successful sort of.

00:23:53: so.

00:23:53: but what is exactly?

00:23:55: because I know from some of your articles on the website And i really wanted tackle this one as well.

00:24:00: What Is Exactly The Interesting Part For Women Here?

00:24:04: Because There Are some very interesting effects.

00:24:08: You mentioned the hormonal stuff or just a tiny bit, maybe you want to go into that one deeper because there is so much interesting stuff also showing up in different studies?

00:24:19: So I'm very interested on this one.

00:24:21: Why's it so interesting

00:24:27: for us women?

00:24:28: One and half answer!

00:24:30: Because what do you are hinting at...I cannot answer but two parts, I think that well not that.

00:24:36: We know women statistically struggle more with anxiety depression burnout chronic stress.

00:24:45: That is a fact.

00:24:46: on top of that we also have the hormonal fluctuation to our life and live transitions.

00:24:52: those themselves obviously penalizes us in professional setting.

00:25:00: so yes Women statistically would benefit more from using psilocybin if that's what they choose to do, to mitigate some of these experiences.

00:25:14: Now I think what you're hinting at is whether or not there is a physiological difference between men and women using psillocybin.

00:25:22: but the honest answer today we don't know enough for me to sit here and have and tell you guys anything?

00:25:30: What I'm talking to several women in this space, brilliant scientists that are looking into this right now is to see because we know that psilocybin doesn't have the same effect on you according to where your cycle.

00:25:45: But and i can feel that acutely myself

00:25:49: however

00:25:49: what we don't really understand it's not one woman who feels at one week prior to her cycle.

00:25:57: she prefers to use more can be the opposite for another woman, so it is also incredibly individual.

00:26:05: And I think what we must not forget when we speak about psilocybin and even their research... ...is that obviously we could map out many more things than would have done right now but.. It's a very individually experience because our psyche like galaxy.

00:26:27: There are so many small rooms and corners of each corner in our mind.

00:26:36: My experience will not be the same as Luca or Alejandra, or Sanjarana on Nicole... everyone has an individual experience regardless what science is going to tell us because we all have different memories experiences trauma etc.

00:26:55: We also have individual hormonal systems.

00:26:58: We don't eat the same food, we haven't taken the same medication... ...we don't have the same sunlight in our face so.. ..we can research much more and that is needed but to a certain degree it will always be very interpersonal experience.

00:27:15: Yeah,

00:27:16: I think this is very important to really point this out.

00:27:20: And what of course comes to my mind now as the next question if one of those participants here or one of our listeners of the podcast are interested in trying microdosing?

00:27:32: What would be

00:27:33: your

00:27:33: suggestion?

00:27:34: Is it safe for everyone?

00:27:36: Are there any kind of restrictions?

00:27:39: Um,

00:27:39: what would you recommend In this case?

00:27:43: so I would always recommend, first of all know your supplier and we are really lucky because we work legally from Holland.

00:27:55: We worked with a microdose and truffles that have been bred to be incredibly dose consistent.

00:28:03: That means every dose will always the same.

00:28:05: you'll have no surprises!

00:28:15: And so you get psilocybin in chocolate, which is a very popular thing.

00:28:19: Recreationally the thing is that you never really know.

00:28:22: how much isn't that dose of chocolate?

00:28:24: So for therapeutic use I wouldn't do it before meeting because i think we would not know though no use to apply and what are getting.

00:28:32: The second thing I will absolutely say on this I cannot state enough.

00:28:37: microdosephal psilocybin itself Of course have an effect on your body.

00:28:41: It works under serotonin receptors Which is mood body temperature, sleep digest and hunger etc.

00:28:49: So it will always have an effect.

00:28:51: but It is also what we call a non-specific amplifier... ...it doesn't add anything to your brain.. ..it cannot guide you where to go!

00:28:58: It does not have that

00:28:59: capacity!!

00:29:00: It's an earth medicine as in the mushroom.

00:29:02: And What its important to know Is That In The hours after taking a micro dose or even forty minutes, fifty minutes, ninety minutes After We Have this what we call window of opportunity or critical period where your DMN is much more active and at the same time less active.

00:29:22: The usual habits, the patterns we spoke about for are not so obvious but at the Same Time Your Brain Is More Active And in that space it's Where We Want To Have Input That Can Help Us Grow & Heal Or or advance in the areas we want to.

00:29:40: This is why we made a program called mindful micro dosing.

00:29:43: right now, it's going be reset for weeks with an expanded programme by Dr Shauna Shapiro one of the world's leading expert on mindfulness and psychology And its about replacing all limiting beliefs about ourselves Or bad habits With something new and positive.

00:30:04: so that what I call big reset And so I would say to start find a supplier that you trust.

00:30:10: Ideally have a program, So we can track and be supportive... ...and always make sure buying from someone who's actually there to support you meaning that you can reach them by email That they reply relatively fast.

00:30:22: We don't want scenario where somebody feels anxious and has nowhere to go In terms of who shouldn't take it?

00:30:31: Anyone with a personality disorder, anyone with schizophrenia either themselves or in the family.

00:30:39: Some people say hard issues and heart conditions though that has never really been proven to be problem with micro dosing.

00:30:48: A lot of our clients have an R on antidepressants so classical SSRIs selective serotonin reoptic inhibitors.

00:30:58: we know from feedback that a lot of them are managing to tapering off these antidepressants.

00:31:04: I don't want... We're not doctors, we're not saying that!

00:31:08: Uh i also don't wanna say talk to your mental health care provider because the sad thing is most mental healthcare providers know incredibly little about psychedelics.

00:31:19: plus it's again back to the rebellious streak in Mabel.

00:31:24: It is challenging for past fifty years how we treat women whether or not it is menopause, appear menopaus with antidepressants or hormonal replacement therapy.

00:31:34: Microdosing is a brand new thing.

00:31:37: that also isn't so great for big pharma's economy and there are lot of politics involved here.

00:31:44: but yeah.

00:31:47: Yeah interesting I totally can relate to what you said.

00:31:55: It's a good idea to have someone supporting you during this journey, at least for the first weeks of this journey.

00:32:01: That is why I also did your program so when i started my microdosing journey and there was an agent who really guides me through everything that makes it easy and feel in power of this journey, which I think is very important.

00:32:31: Okay thank you so much!